Are you familiar with the sci-fi cliche where adamantly warring alien races discover they've actually descended from the same roots? And this always manages to come as some great revelation despite the obvious-ness of it all? I often find this to be true with music styles, particularly electronic ones where a great amount of wasted pretense goes towards The Sonic Emperor's New Clothes fund.
The title of this post is provocative yet true. The biggest difference between DnB and hip-hop is tempo; one is 2x faster than the other. (DnB tends to be 160-200 BPM while hip-hop often goes from 80-100 BPM.) What about MCs, you might ask? Both have a variety of skilled partners in rhyme time, and while the former tends to be more instrumental, that doesn't exclude rapping from being an excellent fit. Both DnB and hip-hop sprung from much African culture, altho in the former's case, it's largely UK-based (with strains from Jamaica influencing dub/dancehall/ragga/etc.), and the latter is American. Don't ever forget those 4 funky German dudes, Kraftwerk, who had a seminal impact on both techstep neurosis and old-skool Afrika Bambaataaisms, and the connections become even more clear. A terrible number of sounds are shared, from synthetic TR-808s to the Amen Break used by both NWA and too many jungle tracks to name. Some luminaries like DJ AK-1200 have observed the gap, but still, it continues to be like the invisible electric elephant in the room. Not always, but often enough.
Trying to hide these facts is in vain; there's nothing to be ashamed of, and certainly a lot of culture and things in common to be shared, to be treasured, to be proud of. Some exemplary examples of DnB-hip-hop hybrids I can think of:
- Pendulum's "Slam" – Begins with a heavy, thundering beat that would make any rapper proud before doubling in speed with Mega Man boss-like melodies. Instrumental aside from the cinematic voiceover.
- DJ Fresh + DJ Shadow's "Closer" – What I might term a "dream team" collaboration, featuring a gallery of varied beats and a soulful female voice that belongs in both camps with the imaginary dividing line.
- Roni Size & Reprazent + Method Man's "Ghetto Celebrity" – Ominous, claustrophobic stings meet rush-hour breakbeats and squelchy loops. Orchestral stabs skillfully mark the passage of time.
- Jungle Brothers' "Jungle Brothers (Aphrodite remix)" – Great beat programming and timestretched vox pave the way for seamlessly doubling/halving tempo as it suits the dancefloor.
There are more I could go on; I mean no disrespect by not naming them. But to this day, the gap between DnB and hip-hop is startling. There's tremendous holes in both the creative and commercial aspects of building bridges to more lively, vibrant sounds — and trying to pretend there's a big difference between them is the real shame.
And what about breakbeat styles? They're midway, speed-wise, between DnB and hip-hop. There's hope ahead, tho: if only more producers would knock down the tempo walls and take the lead of Pete "Boxsta" Martin's "Sliide", who infuses refreshing rubato and accelerando into modern club music.
{ 22 comments… read them below or add one }
I'm not sure about watermelons.
I mean they taste great and all, but
I hate the seeds. I never tried a
rubato, but the fact it's refreshing
scores big for me. I assume it's
midway between a watermelon and
a rutabega, and is a root fruit?
Pete Martin is great check out his remix of Imogen Heap's Hide and Seek:) ps I am hooked on DVNO by Justice, thanks Torley!
Just to confuse you, what with dancehall? It's dnb for reggae freaks? :d
(ps. they wear cute neko tails though! :d)
@Seraphine: Your comment almost looks like a poem. "Rubato" is a musical term… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubato
@Alec: I haven't heard that remix yet; thanks and you're welcome!
@Vint: That's fun!
Drum & Bass is NOTHING like hip hop. Let me start with there are some influnces from hip hop to dnb and vice versa but they are no way related. Hip hop's main focus is the MC. Tunes usually have a meaning to them projected by the MC. Drum & bass (which happens to be one favroute genres of music) is DANCE music. It is the biggest underground rave music in London. The most important thing about DnB which doesn't exist in hip hop is the bass drop. Sometimes live there will be an MC on a dnb set, but almost never on a album track. Have a listen to some propa DnB producers (not Pendulum because he is one of the worst things that has happened to dnb) commix, dj hazard, high contrast and you tell me how this is even slightly simular to hip hop. Or in fact have a listen to some dubstep music (skream, benga) which is the new big thing in London which has influences which meet in between hip hop and DnB
Peace
@Sinna: You disprove your own argument by saying "nothing" and then saying there are "some influences".
Provide audio examples to substantiate your case! I already have above, and it's airtight.
There've been a lot of MCing in DnB (notably ragga jungle but other strains too). Excellent example: the Knight Rider remix by Futurebound + Matrix which has MC Spyda. Yes, it's an album track. Yes, DnB is poorly-conducive to albums:
» http://torley.com/why-are-good-drum-n-bass-albums-so-hard-to-find
Also articulate how Pendulum is so "worst", especially in context of:
» http://torley.com/pendulum-in-silico-is-rockingly-superior-drum-n-bass
Also see my recent mention of Benga.
mate you must be taking the piss,
first of all you mention PENDULUM in the drum and bass scene – schoolboy error mate. what theyre doing in the drum and bass arena fuck knows.
secondly, very rarely do you find any hip hop that sounds grimey enough to be even remotely similar to DnB. all music genres influence each other, yeh fair play but this article couldnt be more from the vain
@wired4distortions: Please explain more, you hurl insults but you don't clarify! See my reasoning above, which makes the connections clear.
I think by saying that hip hop and drum and bass are almost the same, you are really missing the differences within the genres. If you find REAL artists, they don't sound LIKE anyone else. You can hear their influences, but they develop their own sound. Thus, all drum and bass can be called drum and bass because it shares elements like tempo, the use of amens, 808,etc…but the arrangement and different stylistic influences of each producer make each song different. People get into trouble when they try to quantify/qualify something like music, because in classifying it, you miss the spontaneous creativity that makes that track individual. ALL MUSIC IS RELATED, not just drum and bass and hip hop, but on a grand scale drum and bass and hip hop could be cousins, and rock and roll would be both of their uncles, etc…
@tabali: The title of my post IS a generalism, but an often-true one. Sure, there are exceptions which are exceptional who I enjoy very much, but it doesn't stray from the simple idea that drum 'n' bass + hip-hop have much more in common than mental divisiveness (and askew marketing) would have many believe.
And thus, I'm in total agreement with you about "People get into trouble when they try to quantify/qualify something like music" — GREAT! YES!
I'm vs. the mistaken beliefs that these are not connected.
I'm glad that you can respond without taking that comment as a personal attack. I don't think you would hate pendulum so much if they changed up their formula more. Once artists develop a formula, they get stuck, and that tends to make things seem like "everything is the same", but everybody seems to hit walls in their creativity where they have to "break from their own formula", and what we're seeing is a lot of people getting stuck in their formulas. Prodigy is another great example. I'll give you their formula: Start with a nice heavy guitar riff, bring in the rolling drum breaks, then scream, and then go into the swing 2 step beat. THen the rest of the song is a variation of those things, and some ambient noise, and usually the same bass. It wouldn't be so easy if they didn't get stuck in their formula.
Tigi
By the way, the amen was used in hip hop before drum and bass really existed, so to say that hip hop and drum and bass are not related at all is just ignorant. I never said they weren't related, but i'm just saying it's more complex than just making hip hop double speed. I think Sinna has an excellent break down of drum and bass, but a misunderstanding of the connections of hip hop and drum and bass. Considering the b-boy crews gravitated towards drum and bass for a while, I would say that hip hop and drum and bass have already intertwined, and producers from both sides are taking elements from the opposite,like Ewun or El-P. I won't bother posting links, because if you haven't heard of those people, I just feel sorry for you.
tigi
@Tigi: I'm glad you came back! Good points about Pendulum.
Prodigy have deviated from that pattern on their non-single songs, e.g., the Narcotic Suite on Jilted.
"Formula" is a difficult thing because you're damned both ways: experiment and some fans will accuse you of selling out or being too inaccessible, play it safe and you get boring. I'm in favor of making progress.
Ok, firstly let me say that none of you guys have a clue what you're on about.
Secondly, you're all retarded.
Never ever comment on something like this again, you have no idea what you're chattin.
Brofski, shut the fuck up man.
Torley, Drum N Bass enthusiasts don't consider Pendulum notable. "Entry level commercial drum n bass" is what Pendulum is. Drum n Bass producers, fans, and DJs all share an enthusiasm that it remain underground and non-commercialized. Of course it has ties to hip-hop, because jungle (which is what transformed to dnb) was originally influenced by hip-hop. Also by jazz, etc. Whats your point?
Hip hop has gone down the drain. DnB does not focus on MCees at all, on live sets they serve as hypemen, which doesn't say much.
Most of the MCees are really grime artists, which is really just UK hip hop. As an American, I demand you stop tarnishing dnb with hip hop comparisons.
Also, listen to some real DnB
TC, High Contrast, Danny Byrd, Commix, Apex, take your pick.
@Sntzaow: Thanks for sharing your opinions, but they're far from universal — I've heard the same said about TC, High Contrast, Danny Byrd, Sub Focus, etc. because they have a great propensity for non-dissonant melody… which there appears to be an odd fear of.
Or anything that could be termed "Stadium DnB" a la http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.php?threadid=591801&mode=article But I suggest looking past the labels…
DnB is most certainly not a faster Hip Hop, that's just plain ignorant.
@Sntzaow
It may have ties but is certainly not a descendant of hip hop or jazz. Jungle/DnB (there is no difference and yes that has been debated for years) has its roots in Jamaican ragga. (Thats ragga not reggae)
@tabali
I would like to know where in hip hop the amen break was used prior to 1989.
@sinna
… lol, wat?
@Torley
Your view of DnB is quite narrow. Pendulum, Aphrodite, Dj Fresh, and to a certain extent roni size represent a very small part of jungle as a whole. The artists you listed are mostly "Jump Up" style DnB which isn't a good representation of what the genre really is. try listening to earlier jungle like omni trio, goldie and total science. (artists that the rest of the fucks who have posted here probably never heard of) By listening to these cats you will definitely notice that the true nature of DnB is vastly different from hip hop.
I would have a lot more to say but i'm getting tired of repeating myself lol.
@TheExpo: Thx for sharing your opinion! Have you read my previous posts where I also go into other substyles? For example. This is just one post, which cites specific examples, but I never claimed it was comprehensive. I <3 the breadth & diversity.
I've also acknowledged the most extreme applications of said breakbeats, so-called "drill 'n' bass" and "breakcore" (and myriad other terms).
Like I've said numerous times before: the basic notions are true; there are many edge cases and exceptions which are applicable, but they don't surpass the fundamental elements.
Quite an interesting subject and one that has been rinsed in the last few years. I agree and disagree at the same time (not that hard to do imo). I'll start with the disagreement first. Being part of the DnB scene for a very long time now (must be 17 years now) I have certain "fanboy" emotional ties to it. It used to be that way with hiphop too but hiphop imho has been going downhill for some time now. So in my petty little mindset comparing one of my favorite electronica genres i.e. DnB to those "sellout b*****s" makes me "mad". DnB is still a genre deeply rooted in the underground while in hiphop the only thing worth noting is the underground minority. Quite a thin line. Things are starting to go the mainstream way for jungle too if I am any judge , from Pendulum to Jeep ads it seems DnB has been noticed by the marketing big guns that destroy genres.
And now for the agreeing part. Hip Hop and DnB have many many similarities as cultures as well as music genres. They both share the same ancestors : reggae and funk soul (those that would disagree to the reggae ancestry of hiphop f*** off and search for who and what started hip hop. Soul Jazz Records' 'Big Apple Rappin' — The Early Days Of Hip-hop Culture In Nyc 1979-1982' is a good place to start.Read the Liner notes.). They both use many classic breakbeats (the Amen , the Apache , the Firefight etc.) they both started out as party (or rave for UK heads) dance music and apart from the tempo and initial instrumentation they DO sound quite similar.
Also just a little sidenote for those of you who say that the vocal part of DnB is of secondary importance to the instrumental. How come the best-known remembered tracks are almost always vocal tracks like Original Nutta or anything with Barrington Levy on? How do you explain the universal (among junglists at least) recognizability of mcs like Top Cat or Tenor Fly? Why are Hype , Zinc , Aphrodite , Chase & Status (i.e. people who work with vocalists) at the top of the game? The answer is easy. A good mc makes a track a bad mc breaks a track and its better to dance while chanting something that is memorable. Sorry for the long post and big up to all.
@ the Expo : The first hiphop producer to use the Amen was Mr. Mixx of 2 Live Crew on the 1987 track "Feel Alright Y'all" off their 1988 record "Move Something". There was not as much innovation in NWA as people think. They weren't the first to do anything apart from being the first to do the gangsta lyrics in the mainstream. Their music was pretty safe on that account. I don't know why there's so much hype about Dr. Dre's beat skills. NWA were meh musically and from the Chronic onwards Dr.Dre had employees to create the beats . Obviously he does the "quality control" but ????
Hi all. Some of you seem to be missing the point. True enough all music is related but I would say that Hip Hop and Hardcore both emerged from Funk and Reggae and Drum'n'Bass emerged mainly from Hardcore (this is not to say it took nothing from hip hop). I also think it is strange to claim d'n'b came from hip hop due to a later use of the amen loop, as that would be forgetting that Amen Brother was a Funk track in its own right. I'd guess that 90% of all loops used are Funk loops or their children.
On the subject of Pendulum, I would agree with anyone that says they are largely responsible for destroying the d'n'b scene. Has anyone noticed that they only seem to have one snare drum? I know d'n'b has been ruled by amen snare for most of its life but there was great respect between producers for EQing it to sound completely different. I also have a problem with the amount of compression they use pushing it further towards pop. The problem is once one group compresses that much everyone else has to follow, or there tunes sound quieter in a club by comparison.
Turbulence, Quest, Bad Ass, The Nine = Awesome!
This is a GREAT topic. I could go on for hours and hours about this — as some of my friends will confirm I have! I'll keep it somewhat brief.
To an extent you are correct, but its an oversimplification. DnB and hip hop are cousins, but that’s about as far as you can take it.
To be clear, there is way more to dnb than just grimey stuff and bass drops. Much like there is way more to real hip hop than bitches and hoes, gats and gangsta shit – there are tons of more musical dnb artists out there like mutt, redeyes, atlantic connection, alix perez, calibre, lenzman, so so many others [fuck fuck FUCK pendulum]. People that speak of drum n bass music as only being loud or grimey or dark or whatever are just ignorant! There are so many different styles within the genre you can not generalize like that.
That said, over the last 20 years hip hop has morphed into a music genre centered around the mc, whereas dnb mcs are largely an afterthought, or in the worst cases an annoyance. DnB is still mostly about the beats — much as hip hop was in the late 70s and early 80s. (As Kurtis Blow told ya it was all about the breaks.)
I am a dj that plays both of these genres – sometimes in the same set!! While I wish more than anyone that hip hop and dnb would grow closer together I have accepted it simply isn’t going to happen anytime soon. **What you need to keep in minds are the types of audiences these genres attract and what their mindsets are.**
By and large hip hop fans are way too caught up in the image side of things and wouldn’t know real music if it shit on their faces. There are some real heads like myself out there, but we are the minority and my favorite artists never get national recognition. (As a matter of fact you have probably never heard of them.) What most people call hip hop now is really just POP and we all know pop music is for close-minded sheep that need to be spoonfed.
Generally speaking dnb fans are more open-minded and into abstract concepts. I have met way more dnb fans than hip hop fans that are into the arts and such. Don’t get me wrong – there are the ravetard pendulum fans out there with dnb too, that is inevitable. I am speaking broadly and conceptually here. DnB-heads tend to be smarter, deeper, or as some put it "wierder" than your average pop music fan. (Thats cool with me cause I think most people are fucking idiots.)
It is *this* divide between the two genres that must be bridged if there is any hope for hip hop and dnb to come together and progress. Since this is more of a cultural divide it will take a much bigger shift than simply a musical one.
If you want to HEAR some similarities between the two I have several sets on myspace that make it VERY clear. You can download them from my blog here: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendId=95495572
This set [below] named “Common Ground” is perfect for this topic. It is comprised of hip hop and dnb tracks that share common samples. Check it out!!
http://tdb.dirtboxradio.com/TDB-Nov08_CommonGroundSelection.mp3