How much can change in a few days. That's not a question, it's a statement. Just finished a 3-hour tour of winter/holiday locales in Second Life using Release Candidate 1.22.3, and unlike my horrible experiences earlier on my Mac Pro w/GeForce 8800GT, performance is a lot better. Reason to celebrate these holidays!
There wasn't a single paralyzing freeze during my extended visit, and while there were occasional stutters and pauses similar to what happens on my Q6600-based PC, they didn't appear system-specific. Overall viewer performance felt somewhat more sluggish than on the Windows side, particularly in crowds of avatars (both with impostors on and off), which points to room for improvement, since my Mac Pro is superior in most aspects (CPU, GPU, memory) than my Windows PC. Not a single crash despite taking numerous snapshots, so no relogs.
I'd hate to be the only one, but from the looks of VWR-7779, fellow Mac Residents on related hardware are reporting similar goodness, and I've heard corroboratory reports elsewhere. When I last checked at work, the good news was cheered, Linden Lab Quality Assurance is testing to "survey the corpse", and more technical insight into why this was such an improvement has yet to be unraveled — the Apple release notes didn't call out Second Life in particular, but it did say:
Includes general improvements to gaming performance.
Anyway, if you've been having "those freezes" (see VWR-7779 for lengthy details) and you haven't upgraded to 10.5.6 yet, do so after the usual precautions like backing up. As with any OS upgrade, I've seen a few mishaps on MacSurfer, but it's been generally positive.
Going back a bit in time, I vividly recall my excitement this past Monday when I first learned 10.5.6 was out. At first, I was a little doubtful it would be much of an improvement, but after going to spots that easily triggered the freezes within seconds and spinning around, camscanning, etc. it became increasingly clear that such crippling detriment to my enjoyment was no longer a significant problem. Here's s'more from my recent travels, a joy to behold now that I can move freely:
I love exploring Second Life with my wife. Onwards, then!
{ 37 comments… read them below or add one }
Sweet.
BTW, don't you love the detailed Apple software update release notes? /me rolls eyes.
I'm on 10.5.6 too now. I still have trouble with sluggish performance though. My specs are better than the recommended but I still have significant problems with performance. Especially in crowded and primmy places, things sometimes never ever rezzes, at all. Stay grey. Sometimes it helps to relog, sometimes not. I've had this problem before when I tried Nicholaz edition viewers, things that won't rezz. Now it's a "feature" for me on the official SL 1.21 viewer. And the most curious thing is that I believe it wasn't to begin with, when I first started out using 1.21, it seems it suddenly came one day…
Im about to try the New release Torley Ive noticed a huge improvement particularly if I use the "Cool Viewer"http://hyangreflections.blogspot.com/
the regular 1.21.6 viewer is not as smooth and takes longer to rez stuff. Still have some issues with some small stops and starts but not freezes..and the other thing is my Computer is not so hot now not even without Second Life started its dropped about 4 or 5 deg in Temp which is great, I think when the temp on my computer reached 70 or 80 deg it used to stall…
regards Paisley
This probly aint the forum for it …. but does anyone but me miss Torley's wacky, weird, and wunnerful avatars? The new buttoned-down version was a nice diversion but c'mon … bring back the diversity. Sure hope the new corporate head is affecting the image.
BE AWESOME DUDE!
@radar: I wish I should drill down them with disclosure triangles!
@honeybunny: What's your Mac's specs?
@Paisley: Do you know about Fast Timers? While "feel" is important, I'd compare the readings in each viewer and break them down to see *where* the differences are: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Debug_help
@Rose: GLAD THAT YOU CALLED IT OUT! I need to take moar pictures of 'em because I've been out and about with some surreal avs. Part of the problem is when I'm gifted avatars on my work account (Torley Linden) that are no-transfer to my Resi account (Torley Olmstead), which is who I do most of my exploration on.
I've been a pulsating little melon-sun in recent memory, thanx to Angus: http://www.flickr.com/photos/torley/3081797000/
Paisley, find a program called smcFanControl and it wil help a lot with the temperatures. It's actually helped a couple people I know quit crashing in SL so much. I typically run the fans at around 1100 rpm while in SL on my Mac Pro, depending on the room temperature.
Torley, one other thing I forgot was that the Mac Pro's design tends to let dust bunnies accumulate right on top of the GPU fan. I know I have to check mine periodically and make sure it's clear.
I'm on a macbook pro, 2,33 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 2GB RAM, ATI Radeon X1600, OSX 10.5.6. Is it my gfx card? Or shouldn't I expect better performance on a laptop?
@honeybunny How much memory does the video card have? If it's a 128 meg, youch. I have a Macbook Pro with the Nvidia 8600M GT 512 meg, and the performance is very close to my Mac Pro with the ATI X1900 512 meg. I think it's the X1900 in the Mac Pro.
Anyway, it's not a laptop thing as my laptop does great with SL now that they've fixed all the crash/freeze/lockup modes that were affecting me so badly in the 1.19 and 1.20 client era.
@Torley had a look but I'll leave that to you to try the different viewers its a bit too tecky for me ;P
@radar yep got SMC also and use it allways the readings I get are with fans maxed up and the laptop is on a stand with airflow under it…and I turn off all my other programs…I have found that since I upgraded my ADSL modem to N1 thats its running hotter…Im getting faster internet now from 56 mpg to 300 not sure if thats related…I used the new viewer last night 1.23 but it was still not as smooth running as the "Cool Viewer" it crashed several times..I realise it is only in new release…Im really hoping that the latest LL viewer will run better on my Mac…I have about 5 viewers Im testing
Paisley
my gfx card has 256 meg memory
my main problem is the non-rezzing of things, that new "feature" of the official 1.21 viewer (see my post above). It's really annoying. Also, lag has increased significantly for me lately. We're usually two doing things together, I have a feeling I'm less lagged when I'm alone though, when I'm not near another person. I'm trying the Cool viewer, 1.21. Seems more stable but the non-rezz and lag problems are still there, unchanged as I feel it.
The non-rezz issues are, I think, a bug that's affecting texture loading and maybe also something new in one of the server patches. That's a guess, but I think the texture loading slow issue is a known one. IIRC, textures are getting called to load more than once. Also, I think everyone is seeing the same slow slow rez regardless of client used.
I'm currently running the 1.22 RC's and they are as stable for me as any SL client ever has been. I like them.
Lag hasn't really been an issue for me, but I also don't go to crowded sims or anyplace what would most likely show the effects of it to the extreme.
if this is indeed a known issue and a bug let's hope it will be dealt with very soon…pretty basic stuff, being able to see things…also bad for business, not everyone have the patience to wait until the vendor boards rezz…
@honeybunny: Have a clearer comparison between older and newer versions?
I don't notice a difference in time-to-rez, but it sure could always be faster. =)
Torley, I could give you a longer, hopefully more detailed account of how I percieve things in SL, if you care to read/listen?
@honeybunny: If you could make a comparative video, that would be most helpful — shows me what you see.
Video hm…I tried to make video a few times with the tool in the viewer (which I can't find anymore) but it made my viewer crash every time. Haven't tried since, don't know how to.
I'll just send some notes in the meantime…
The "window" in time when my comp was working optimally in SL have long since gone it feels like, and since there always seems to have been a lot of irritating mac-bugs that time wasn't really noticeable anyway. A few months ago most things rezzed almost instantly though, now it takes a long time…you watch the mini-map how things "roll out", it takes a long time. For me there is also the added feature of things not rezzing at all. I can stay in a place, all alone, for maybe 5 minutes and many things remain grey. If I relog, things rezz though, not always, but often. Is this a mac-specific bug?
My feeling is that LL keeps updating so rapidly it leaves most users behind. LL is aiming at volume right? As many accounts as possible seems to be the agenda (when everybody knows that A LOT of accounts are bots and campers due to the stupid way traffic is calculated). But the LL seems to be moving along so fast that the vast majority of all users are left behind, their normal comps hopelessly out of date in 6 months. When windlight was introduced in the main viewer I had atmos shaders turned on and pretty high settings in grahics. Now I have to turn the atmos shaders off and lower the other specs to be able to move about at all. Still movement is considerably jerkier and much more unpleasant than it was only 5 months ago. Still my comp specs are better than the recommended in the SL website.
Another thing, when I'm alone things work pretty ok, camera movement is quite smooth and so on. But when I'm with someone (and it's much more fun to share your experience!) things immediately becomes jerky and unpleasant. And this is very noticeable as soon as I'm not all alone in a sim, if there are many people in a sim you might as well forget it. It's no fun having to stand around waiting for 5 minutes or more for things to rezz.
And the constant re-rezzing when you put something on, like clothes, it goes on for minutes. Is that normal?
Oh, yes, and sound, frequently, like many times each session, I'm not sure if it's together with other lag (which have increased a lot btw, A LOT), but my sound gets garbled, it sounds like you had poured sand in the speakers or something, or like it was under water or something. Comes and goes.
This sounds like I hate SL, I don't. I love it, it's a wonderful place, that's why I care, that's why I ask these questions. Is LL really aware of what they have created? Sometimes I'm not sure…
I find that the Mac Pro works fine for me, but I have an ATI Radeon X1900 512 meg card, not the Nvidia. In theory, the Nvidia would be higher performing, but in reality, it's not quite that simple.
I *do* have the nvidia 8600 gt m on my macbook pro, and it takes a LOT longer to load textures, etc. I don't really have any beachballs or freezes of consequence on either machine with 1.22 RC5 that I've noticed, but when I'm in SL, I'm almost always on the Mac Pro with the ATI and not the Macbook Pro with the Nvidia.
As for LL not being aware of what they've created, I doubt that many of them are as into SL in the same way that you are. I do know of a couple, two I could name right now but won't who are into it, and lead full citizen lives with their main, "pre-LL-employment" avatars as well. They've taught me a lot about SL too.
@honeybunny: The built-in video recorder was removed because it was too buggy. Yours is a good example of why I would hope sharing video (and sound of course) from Second Life becomes very easy in the future. It's the natural evolution from current, step-by-step bug reports to "See what I see! Hear what I hear!"
Re: LL support issues, I can't help with them here, and it'd be useful to separate different issues (even if they might be related). So I recommend http://secondlife.com/support please
@radar: Aye, I consider it of utmost importance to spend lots of hands-on time in SL so I know what is happening by firsthand understanding. As part of LL's orientation, we have an Inworld Experience portion which helps new Lindens get acquainted with our unique culture.
I'm not sure if just showing a video is all that more evolved compared to detailed descriptions, not sure at all. And as usual, when I do describe things in detail I don't get an answer… I'm too wondering, since my specs are obviously better than the recommended on SL official website, for whom is SL actually working better over time? Anybody? I haven't met one single person in SL – and I meet quite a few – who actually thinks things are improving.
…it's hard to really pinpoint since problems comes and goes in waves, but my feeling is that overall SL is performing worse and worse each day, when it should be the other way around. Especially bad after any "update" like last week's…whatever that was about
..and one thing I've wondered about, the settings in prefs, under the network tab. How are those supposed to be set? And what do they really mean?
Don't get me wrong, I don't actually think that LL is doing their worst…rather the contrary of course. But something is fundamentally wrong somewhere, way too many ppl with quite good comps are having way too many problems. Today there was a fix that would enhance performance…I find that it's laggier and things rezz even slower than before. Are Lindens servers not able to cope with the number of people online, is it as simple as that?
@honeybunny: It's not as simple as that, alas.
And videos do help significantly more; I might not have believed it beforehand, but after having recorded and watched 100s, they're a great tool to diagnose problems, since there's no subjectivity involved about what's going on. (Someone's definition of "very laggy" might be far more lax than someone else's.)
First of all, thanks for actually responding allthough I'm a bit frustrated that I can't seem to get any specific help anywhere. I've tried groups, forums, blogs, friends online, you name it. I'm about to give up and leave SL because it simple doesn't perform the way I think it's supposed to unless you tap into the Pentagon super comp or something. Once again, my comp meet the specs recommended on the SL website, my connection is 10 mb/sec, I should be fine. But I'm not. Today I looked at those statistic bars and lag meters, trying to figure out what might be the problem since I experience things jerkier and laggier than in a few days. It doesn't matter if I choose high, mid or low in the graphic settings, my framerate is still below 10. It doesn't matter if I'm in a extremely low prim skybox/platform at 700+ meters or in a complex enviroment, my frame rate is still below 10. It doesn't matter if I decrease my draw distance down to below 80, my framrate isn't affected in any significant way. My conclusion is that it's not me, it's SL on a whole, laggy and getting laggier each day. Like I said before, when Windlight was introduced in the main viewer I could without problem use the high settings, now it's virtually impossible. I still meet the recommended specs…I'm extremely frustrated:(
I didn't want to leave you in silence, honeybunny: I'm sorry, I can't provide Second Life support help here, nor am I the right Linden to assist you.
If you could please email me (torley at lindenlab dot com) your correspondence so far with LL's support staff and ticket #, I'll have a look… if something problematic stands out, I'll be sure to let you know.
I'm fully aware that you are not the channel for support, but I still had to tell it to someone. As a non-premium member support ticket options are limited.
Maybe this will create some buzz anyway, that's my hope. I don't expect direct help from you Torley, don't worry. Take care!
When the latest viewer was introduced SL suddenly behaved like I always thought it should:) Happy, happy:)
However, with each consecutive server update since then things have deteriorated again, rapidly, and now I'm kind of back to slow, bad and sluggish performance, slow rezzing and very bad and slow sculpties rezzing (worse than before actually). The updates clearly haven't been beneficial to Mas OS.
Again, Torley, I don't expect you to help me in any way here, I only hope that you can bounce this in the right direction at LL…
I honestly don't think it's a case of the server updates not benefiting the Mac OS, I think it's a case of they are not benefiting anyone. Stuff not getting pushed down from the server quickly, which is what seems to be happening, should affect everyone equally, unless there's some weird interaction between the mac version of the client and the new server versions.
Sculpty loading is so slow now as to be ridiculous. But rezzing in general does seem slower. I really hope LL is taking a look at the texture loading improvements made in the opensim codebase recently and trying to determine if those can be integrated into the SL client.
Torley, I wanted to follow up on this and ask you if, now that the SL performance issues with the nvidia have been addressed, is the 8800 GT a worthwhile upgrade for the Mac Pro from the ATI X1900? The reason I ask is that I have a 2007 Mac Pro and I can't upgrade to the ATI HD 4870. The 8800 GT looks to be my only supported graphics upgrade for my Mac Pro.
Thanks!
…not to mention lag…
The thing is, when the latest viewer was introduced, things suddenly improved tremendously. Things worked as smoothly as they did before Windlag was made an official feature. I could even turn atmos shaders back on. But, like I said, things deteriorated very quickly and are now back to like it was before. Sculpties rezzing even worse than ever actually. I simply don't understand why this is, surely LL is not trying their damndest to make things as bad as possible… To me it's incomprehensible that things get worse again after actually being quite good.
I've run across this message board out of sheer frustration with the newest release of SL. I, too, had experienced many of the same problems as Honeybunny on my mac G5 and found the only solution was to run an older version of SL. Now, the newest (or newer) release is mandatory and the old version, which worked splendidly, is inoperable. When I visit a moderately occupied sim or venue, most avatars never flesh out and 1/4 of them never advance past the miasmic stage. This is especially irritating when your dance partner takes 10+ minutes to materialize. I'm hesitant to upgrade anything on my computer to make SL operate better, but I'm certainly open to suggestions. best ~ Kai
where do you even install Mac OS X 10.5.6? im soo lost. please help !
oh yea and thanks if you do,lol
annabella,
If you're running OS X 10.5.x (any version of 10.5 previous to 10.5.6), just run software update. It will show you that 10.5.6 needs installed, and all you have to do is let it install it.
If you're running OS X 10.4, you'll have to purchase 10.5 from Apple first, then run software update.
You can tell what version you're currently running by going to the Apple menu and clicking on About this Mac (I think that's the menu option, I'm at work on a Windows PC right now, such is my luck in life).
ohh !
okay thanks dude,, unfortunately i have 10.4 :/ but im not buying ANYTHIN! lmao,,
and i think im just gonna download the 10.4 update combo from apple. do you think that will work for my second life too?